008 Dialog between Ismail, Jamil and Sam

Ismail

Hello, thank you for visiting Allah’s Word. How may I help you?

Jamil

Ismail

hey there please welcome

Jamil

i would like to ask if its true that no one would enter heaven unless he or she is a muslim

Ismail

Yes. The essential thing is believing in one God and His last and final messenger and following their way

Jamil

what if someone couldn’t believe in muhammad as the final prophet? because there are lots of videos/evidence/arguments that show muhammad wasnt a prophet and to be honest they make sense in many cases

Ismail

Then there is an issue there because in an authentic hadith it says that no one hears of him and disbelieves in him but will not enter paardise

It is very essential

Jamil

i dont understand th hadith

can u quote it please

what im trying to say like is there any solid proof that muhammad was the final prophet and he’s our only salvation? because like i said there are tons of evidence that prove otherwise

Ismail

God is the only salvation and the prophet was send to show us the way to Him and how to worship God.

We believe in both God and His messenger

Jamil

ok but i believe before we examine that if this person is truly a prophet of god we should examine his life , i dont want to get into examples because there are tons of them .. what i want to know is how to reconcile that with muhammad being our way to salvation

Ismail

The signs that prove the prophecy of Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) are numerous. Many books have been written to enumerate them and thoroughly discuss them. We would like to mention some of these signs as reported by Muslim scholars and which prove that Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) was a real Prophet including:

– First, his good biography and high morals as well as the noble qualities that distinguished him. He was known before becoming a Prophet as a truthful and honest person, although the community where he lived was a society of ignorance. This was, perhaps, the most important sign of his prophecy. He was not known to have ever lied on people. So, why should he lie on be half of the Lord by claiming that he was a Prophet, if he was not a real Prophet?

– Second, the powers and triumphs Allah gave him and the spread of the religion he preached, as well as the triumph of this religion over all existing religions in a short period of time. Had he been a liar, Allah would have humiliated and destroyed him as He did with those before him who falsely claimed Prophethood.

– Third, the miracles Allah gave him as supporting evidence were beyond the ability of human beings and were beyond range of natural phenomena. The moon split for him, water gushed from his fingers, food became more abundant in his hands, and similar phenomena were authentically reported and happened in a way that could not be denied.

– Fourth, the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) was backed by the greatest miracle which is the Quran. In fact, Quran was a challenge and remains a challenge for Arabs who were known to be good poets and eloquent speakers. Allah challenged them to write a single Surah (chapter) that would be similar to that of Quran, but the Arabs were unable to do so. Indeed, the challenge still endures, none of the Arabs throughout history – since the revelation of the Quran – was able to make anything that was even similar to it. No doubt that the Quran has been preserved intact until it came to us. Groups of people memorized it including children, adults, males and females. So generations brought the Quran to generations until it reached us as it was revealed 14 centuries ago. Hence, the Quran remains intact protected from distortion or alteration. Nothing has been added to it, nor taken from it. Quran is full of scientific facts that were verified only in these times of scientific investigation. No doubt that Muhammad who was illiterate would not have possessed this knowledge 14 centuries ago. Doesn’t this prove the authenticity of the Quran and that it is the Word of the Creator of the Universe who knows all its secrets?

– Fifth, the things from the unseen that he (the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention )) informed us about. Some of them occurred during his life time. Others happened later. Some of these things happened to the Prophets, may Allah exalt their mention, who preceded him and some are still to occur. He also informed about the signs of The Day of Judgment, some of which had already been seen such as widespread killings and genocide, adultery and fornication and the consumption of the alcohol, outnumbering of males by females and the increased number of earthquakes, and afflictions,… etc.

– Sixth, the testimony of some of the people of the Book that he was a true Prophet. Some of them believed in him like ‘Abdullah Ibn Salam may Allah be pleased with him who was a Jew as well as Negus (king of Abyssinia) who was a Christian. Some of the people of the Book certified that he was a Prophet from Allah but refused to follow him like Huyayy Ibn Akhtab.

Jamil

first point, there are examples that actually show that muhammad wasn’t a moral person

if u like i can provide some

Ismail

Ok if we continue to debate it won’t actually prove anything

Jamil

exactly

Ismail

Because you’ll disapprove of my points an I’d do the same

Anyways anything else?

Are you already muslim?

Jamil

no i left it like 4 months ago

Ismail

Oh ok I see.

So what brings you here?

Jamil

i tried to understand what christianity is about, but the doctrine of trinity that most christians believe in didn’t make any sense to me

so im trying to reconcile with the “evil” things i learnt about islam

Ismail

The word Trinity itself is not in the Bible. Also this creed was not formed during the time of Jesus. it was formed 325 AD at the Nicea Council. lets think: if Jesus was God himself, why did he pray to be saved? and to whom did he pray? to himself??

We believe this : he is the way to God.. you can’t reach God except through the teachings of Jesus

during Moses’ time: Moses was the way.   

The concept of Monotheism and One God is repeated in all divine religions   

Belief in True God (Allah) as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as #Tawhid in Islam.

This concept of Oneness of God was stressed by #Moses in the Biblical passage Known as the “Shema,” or the Jewish creed of faith: “Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by #Jesus when he said “…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: “And your God is One God: there is no God but He (Allah)” (Qur’an 2:163)

Jamil

yes exactly it doesnt make any sense

my issue now is how to reconcile / forget everything i learnt about islam despite i couldnt get satisfying answers to those arguments made by christians

Ismail

Ok.

Jamil

bear with me, like how do you, as a muslim, see these objections/arguments and still a muslim

how could u

Ismail

Because I have certinity in my faith and I read the Quran which points out to me the clear signs of the existence of God and in the Quran He commands us to follow the messengers. The Quran cannot be produced of its like since that time

It truly is from Him alone.

Jamil

but again, what about the arguments that show its not from god , im sure u seen some

like take the verse where it says that semen comes from backbone and ribs .. we know today that its not true .. how do you reconcile with that

Ismail

You want to tell me the Quran is not from God?

with all the miracles it had?

It has miracles that science just proved

Jamil

im saying there are lots of evidence that show its not

Ismail

How did a human know that

1400 years ago lol

Jamil

know what?

Ismail

The scientific miracles

Scientists just discovered them

We did not have technology then

Jamil

dr zakir naik said quran is not a book of science and we shouldnt treat it that way

can u give me one example..

Ismail

Yes but it has miracles

The perfect description of the process of creation in the mother’s womb

Human creation

Jamil

ok but the stages of embryologic development are shown to be not like what the quran teaches , its debatable , but still we can find that galen did say the same stages in the quran hundred of years before muhammad , also i read that muhammad’s doctor learnt these stages when he was n Bukhara and when he came to Mecca he told them to the prophet

also u have the verse saying that semen comes from backbone and ribs .. thats incorrect according to medicine

Ismail

Ok.

Jamil

so how do we reconcile with that? im asking you like a brother i dont mean to mock or anything

Ismail

I ignore it

Jamil

why

Ismail

Because I am certain of my faith

Jamil

isn’t that a blind faith

Ismail

I read and study the Quran, it surely isn’t made up

Jamil

but i just show u one example and u said u ignore it

Ismail

Ignore the evidences trying to disaapovre it

It is not new

People always tryed to

since he was sent

Jamil

i dont think anyone stood up to muhammad about that verse , its something new thats been developed and discovered in recent centuries

Ismail

Jamil

look i have a degree in medicine, i tried to make sense of that verse, looked it up tried to twist it left and right, but it just not right

Ismail

I see

Jamil

semen doesnt come out from the backbone and the ribs …

and im sure you’d agree with me on that

Ismail

The testes and ovary are formed from the genital tubercle between the sulb and taraa’ib of the foetus. The sulb is the spinal column and the taraa’ib are the ribs. The testes and ovaries are formed in this exact region, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs, then the testes descend gradually until they reach the scrotum (outside the abdomen) at the end of the seventh month of gestation; the ovaries descend to the female’s pelvis. … However, nourishment continues to reach the testes or ovaries via the circulatory, nervous and lymphatic systems from the point where they originated, i.e., from between the backbone and ribs. The arteries that supply the testes or ovaries come from the aorta, from between the backbone and the ribs, and the veins coming from the testes end in the same region, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs. The nerves to the testes and ovaries come from a group of nerves that exist beneath the stomach, between the backbone and the ribs. The lymphatic vessels also end in the same area, i.e., between the backbone and the ribs.   

Can there be any doubt, after all this, that the testes and ovaries receive nourishment and blood from, and are connected to nerves that come from, between the backbone and the ribs?     

The material for formation of the sperm in the man and the eggs in the woman comes from an area between the backbone and the ribs, in addition to the fact that the sperm and eggs develop from cells that originate between the backbone and the ribs. So this verse is a complete miracle, as it says “from between the back-bone (as-sulb) and the ribs (at-taraa’ib)” and it does not say “from the backbone and the ribs”. The word “between” is not only eloquent; it is also scientifically precise.

Jamil

i dont wanna get into details but that’s not 100% accurate

you can really refer to any embryologic textbook and see where the testes and ovaries originate from

11:17:42 am

Ismail transferred the chat to Sam

Sam

Hey Jamil, sorry for the transfer experience, I think brother Ismail had something urgent come up

I’d love to continue the conversation

Jamil

Sam

Would you like me to go through the above conversation, or would you like to start a freh?

fresh*

Jamil

well i think we wrapped it up , Isamil had nothing to provide with as u can see if u scroll up

its ok, ill be short

i left Islam like 4 months ago, started studying christianity, but the whole trinity doctrine still doesn’t make any sense to me.. im trying to get back to Islam but i find it hard to reconcile with everything i learnt about islam because there were no answers to the objections and arguments

Sam

Hmm I see

May I ask… At this momenty, do you feel there is any religion on Earth that is more correct than Islam?

Jamil

yes

Judaism

Sam

Well it’s unfortunate that you feel that way, because Judaism is a closed religion ^_^

Jamil

i know, that’s why its off the list

Sam

Do you think God would limit who could worship him?

Jamil

exactly

Sam

haha

That means that Islam is currently #1

Until you find something closer to the truth?

Jamil

well i was born a muslim

yes u can say that

Sam

OK, well in that case I see no reason why you shouldn’t remain a Muslim, or come back to Islam for now… Sure you have questions, but questions have answers if you search for them

And honestly, how can God judge you on something that you tried to attain but never found?

Jamil

actually if you wanna convert to judaism its not 100% closed , u can , but they require that u already have great knowledge in the torah and the commandments (unlike in islam where u just recite the shihadaa)

Sam

It would also take a few years ^

And you would not be a “Full” Jew

Now what happens if you die while converting ^_^

Jamil

but i already searched those arguments and couldnt find any reasonable answer to any

Sam

Brother Jamil… All we can do is our best

If you feel that the answers you found are not adequate enough

Then keep searching for the answers and ask God to guide you to the truth

Until then… You should stick with what you think is the closest to the truth

Our purpose in life is to worship God… And you are doing your best, clearly

You are searching for a way to worship him and want to follow the correct way

But nothing on your list seems closer to the truth than Islam

So logically, the best / safest thing to do, is come back to Islam and search other religions and search whatever questions you have while you are a Muslim

Because if it is indeed the truth, then you are on it

And you can always switch if you feel that there is something closer to the truth

What do you think about that?

Jamil

well first of all i really wanna thank u a lot for being so kind and patient , like maybe you’re the first muslim in these previous 4 months who actually didn;t call me a fake muslim or emotionally troubled or whatever , so than u for that

Sam

Not a problem brother, it’s my pleasure. We’re all just trying our best, I don’t see the need to judge, I can assure you I have my own problems to deal with haha – and I don’t want others hating on my for that >_<

Jamil

second , you’re right , but i just can’t reconcile with everything islamic anymore , idk how to explain this but i can’t now just go and pray and deep inside me all those arguments that show muhammad is a false prophet still in my head , that’s hypocritical , that’s what i believe .. you’re a muslim, im sure u listened and heard lots of arguments against islam and lets be honest , some of them make sense .. so how did u reconcile with that and stayed a muslim? i couldnt

Sam

Well I think there is something really important in that, sure you may have thoughts swirling in your head that Muhammad peace be upon him was a false prophet… But do you think for sure that he was false, or you just have doubts? If it’s just doubts, then you should stick with what you feel is the closest to the truth and use that as a starting point

Which do you feel more strongly:

1. He was a prophet?

2. He was a false prophet?

Jamil

Sam

Also in terms of arguments about Islam… Being on this Live Chat system and speaking with countless people who attack Islam… Trust me, I’ve seen it all… And I will tell you the most common problems you would find with any argument about Islam

If they talk about The Quran:

1. They use many different translations and paste them together to try to form a false argument

2. They do not understand the actual words used in the text

3. They argue a point that has no weight at all on the credibility of the Quran..

If they argue about hadith

1. They use weak or fabricated hadith

2. They (like in The Quran) rely on a translation that did not fully show the meaning of the Arabic words to make an argument

3. Flat out lie

Whenever a question comes to me about Islam, it would almost always land in one of these, and I have never not found an answer to one of their questions

If you feel that Muhammad peace be upon him was most likely a false prophet, then I think we should discuss that a bit as that is rather important as it is part of the shahada

What is the biggest thing that makes you feel that way about him?

Jamil

do you believe in the Torah?

Sam

I believe that Torah was from Allah just like The Gospel, however The Torah was once completely lost and has been altered from its original form

There are still some things in it which may be true, that I agree

Jamil

Sure, i think that happened to the gospel and the Quran as well (verses being changed or lost)

Ok i will show you what Moses said in the Torah

Sam

It did happen with The Gospel, but it did not happen with The Quran : )

The problem is… Since we know that The Torah was once lost and we know it was altered… how can we use it as a measure of true or false?

Jamil

well that’s not quite true, Daniel Brubaker recently published his book “20 corrections in early quranic manuscripts” and he’s intending to publish a bigger book that shows tons of other corrections that deliberately , according to him , happened to these early manuscripts to fit with modern day hafs version of QUran 1924

i think you are aware of that , also there’s this hadith that kinda shows Quranic verses were lost

It was narrated that ‘Aishah said:

“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَلَمَةَ، يَحْيَى بْنُ خَلَفٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الأَعْلَى، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، عَنْ عَمْرَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، ‏.‏ وَعَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ لَقَدْ نَزَلَتْ آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ وَرَضَاعَةُ الْكَبِيرِ عَشْرًا وَلَقَدْ كَانَ فِي صَحِيفَةٍ تَحْتَ سَرِيرِي فَلَمَّا مَاتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ وَتَشَاغَلْنَا بِمَوْتِهِ دَخَلَ دَاجِنٌ فَأَكَلَهَا ‏.‏

Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)

Sam

Actually I’ve seen a bit of this to an extent… Brother Jamil… The corrections that are pointed out… Are corrections in a single text that were handwritten incorrectly hahaha, when I watched a video about it and saw the “corrections” that were being pointed out it was actually funny

Jamil

good question, we cannot be sure if the Torah is correct or not unless Muhammad told us so, i looked it further up and i found out this hadith

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:

A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431).

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْهَمْدَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، حَدَّثَنِي هِشَامُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ، أَنَّ زَيْدَ بْنَ أَسْلَمَ، حَدَّثَهُ عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ أَتَى نَفَرٌ مِنْ يَهُودَ فَدَعَوْا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِلَى الْقُفِّ فَأَتَاهُمْ فِي بَيْتِ الْمِدْرَاسِ فَقَالُوا يَا أَبَا الْقَاسِمِ إِنَّ رَجُلاً مِنَّا زَنَى بِامْرَأَةٍ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ فَوَضَعُوا لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وِسَادَةً فَجَلَسَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِالتَّوْرَاةِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَأُتِيَ بِهَا فَنَزَعَ الْوِسَادَةَ مِنْ تَحْتِهِ فَوَضَعَ التَّوْرَاةَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ آمَنْتُ بِكِ وَبِمَنْ أَنْزَلَكِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ ائْتُونِي بِأَعْلَمِكُمْ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَأُتِيَ بِفَتًى شَابٍّ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ قِصَّةَ الرَّجْمِ نَحْوَ حَدِيثِ مَالِكٍ عَنْ نَافِعٍ ‏.‏

Grade : Hasan (Al-Albani)

Sam

Because no one would say that every scribe would handwrite the Quran correctly in any one attempt… Rather their work would need to be revised by an editor and mistakes corrected

Jamil

but he showed that these corrections happened waaay after those manuscripts initially released , u know , different ink different handwriting style … its debatable

Sam

The claim of the verse of suckling being taken out of The Quran is actually false… I’ll tell you why. Because The Quran was not complete until The Prophet peace be upon him said so. As you know The Quran was revealed over many years and there were revelations that were not part of The Quran, like Hadith Qudsi

So any revelation that was not included in the final compilation of The Quran that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered (verbal compilation, not written), then it would not be considered “in” The QUran to begin with

“but he showed that these corrections happened waaay after those manuscripts initially released , u know , different ink different handwriting style … its debatable”

^ This actually doesnt disprove the Quran then at all ^_^

A mistake can be overlooked, but when the mistake is then noticed, people are obligated to correct it

Jamil

maybe you are right , its debatable

but this is not what i want to say

Sam

Whos to say anyone ever even used those manuscripts until they were correct, there are too many unknowns

But what we do know is that people makes mistakes and God does not, and The Quran in my house is the same as any other Quran in the world

The words are the same

So the proof is on the side of The Quran, not against it

Brother, may I please ask a favour?

Jamil

yes

Sam

I actually need to go pray real quick

May you please give me 10 mins?

Jamil

ok i will wait 🙂

Sam

OK, thanks a lot! : D

brb

Jamil

tyt

Sam

OK, I’m back

Thanks so much for waiting

Jamil

welcome back & may god accept ur prayer

Sam

Ameen!

Jamil

so u asked me to show an example on why i think muhammad is a false prophet

Sam

Yeah, sure

Jamil

as muslims, we believe in the Torah and the injil, both got corrupted ; could be , its debatable , many centuries passed by and they might really edited or changed

the reason why i believe torah is not corrupted is that muhamamd judged two jews who committed zina based on what the torah says according to an authentic hadith

and as you know the dead sea scrolls that were found and date back to before jesus time were examined , and they found that the torah we have today matches the torah in dead sea scrolls

so i believe that the Torah we have today is , let’s say 99% authentic

nothing is perfect

so im gonna show u verses from the Torah that Moses spoke

Deuteronomy 18

15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

i dont think these verses are somehow corrupted or edited or changed .. no reason that they could corrupt such verses

i believe they were truly spoken by moses

now according to what moses say here, if a prophet utters words not from god then he’s a false prophet and should be put to death … Muhammad did speak words there were not from Allah but from satan according islamic commentaries and biographies (im sure u heard of the satanic verses)

second , it says if this prophets prophecies something and didnt come up true then he’s a false prophet .. there’s a lot of prophecies in authentic hadiths that did not come up true .. like the hadith where muhammad says the Romans will be the majority of people etc

so here u go , this is one example why i believe muhammad is a false prophet

Prophetic Commentary on the Qur’an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) – كتاب التفسير » Hadith

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مَعْمَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَارِثِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ سَجَدَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِالنَّجْمِ وَسَجَدَ مَعَهُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ وَالْمُشْرِكُونَ وَالْجِنُّ وَالإِنْسُ‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ ابْنُ طَهْمَانَ عَنْ أَيُّوبَ‏.‏ وَلَمْ يَذْكُرِ ابْنُ عُلَيَّةَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ‏.‏

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 385

Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4862

Sam

Thanks so much for that, I’d like to address them in order if I may

Jamil

yes please , feel free to

Sam

First,

I’d like to respond to that hadith:

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said in the hadith: فَأُتِيَ بِهَا فَنَزَعَ الْوِسَادَةَ مِنْ تَحْتِهِ فَوَضَعَ التَّوْرَاةَ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏”‏ آمَنْتُ بِكِ وَبِمَنْ أَنْزَلَكِ ‏

It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

^ This is a confirmation that the Torah was indeed revealed by Allah and that Allah is our lord. In any Muslim state, if two people of the book dispute over a matter, they can judge based on their scripture. So judging the two Jews based on what was in the Torah was the correct thing to do and should still be done today.

If you say that The Torah is 99% authentic, then you agree that 1% is not authentic. What God reveals needs to remain perfect or a new revelation needs to be sent to mankind, otherwise mankind would be lost and following something incorrect. We can see this with all the prior revelations.. After the texts were lost and people started going astray, a new revelation was sent. With The Quran Allah vowed to protect it, thus there is no need for another messenger until the day of judgement

As for the dead sea scrolls, some of them may have some authentic information, others may not… but it should have any sway in an argument, because they are only snippets of information and are not a complete picture in any respect

Jamil

but you’re missing the point that if its corrupted then Muhammad shouldn’t judge passed on what the torah says

Sam

He is obligated to

Because the Jews who came to be judged follow the Torah and they are people of the book

This is a leeway granted to The Jews and The Christians whom follow their scriptures

We know they are corrupted, however if they wish to judge between themselves based on it, then we allow them to do so

It does not in any way affect Islam itself, rather it is just a concession extended to them as people who have been given scripture and follow it

Also when you mention that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him spoke words that were not from Allah… What exactly are you referring to? Because we agree that he was just a Human right? So He would have his daily affairs where he could go and ask what is the price of meat or whatever and then he can be given revelation which is from God

So what he claims to be revelation from God is the only thing that we should consider when judging based on what you showed from The Torah

Correct?

Jamil

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL 5:43

But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

bn ‘Umar said:

some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، قَالَ قَرَأْتُ عَلَى مَالِكِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ عَنْ نَافِعٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّ الْيَهُودَ جَاءُوا إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَذَكَرُوا لَهُ أَنَّ رَجُلاً مِنْهُمْ وَامْرَأَةً زَنَيَا فَقَالَ لَهُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ “‏ مَا تَجِدُونَ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ فِي شَأْنِ الزِّنَا ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا نَفْضَحُهُمْ وَيُجْلَدُونَ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَلاَمٍ كَذَبْتُمْ إِنَّ فِيهَا الرَّجْمَ ‏.‏ فَأَتَوْا بِالتَّوْرَاةِ فَنَشَرُوهَا فَجَعَلَ أَحَدُهُمْ يَدَهُ عَلَى آيَةِ الرَّجْمِ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ يَقْرَأُ مَا قَبْلَهَا وَمَا بَعْدَهَا فَقَالَ لَهُ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَلاَمٍ ارْفَعْ يَدَكَ ‏.‏ فَرَفَعَهَا فَإِذَا فِيهَا آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ فَقَالُوا صَدَقَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ فِيهَا آيَةُ الرَّجْمِ ‏.‏ فَأَمَرَ بِهِمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَرُجِمَا ‏.‏ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ فَرَأَيْتُ الرَّجُلَ يَحْنِي عَلَى الْمَرْأَةِ يَقِيهَا الْحِجَارَةَ ‏.‏

Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)

they asked muhammad to judge them, muhammad told them to get the torah according to the hadith

also quran makes it clear that jews should judge based on what the torah says , doesn’t this prove that torah is authentic according to quran?

Sam

Yes, like I mentioned earlier, this is how an Islamic state is run, just look at the verse before what you sent me:

Sahih International

[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them – never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

5:42 ^

In Islam we know that The Quran is from Allah and the people of the book were given scriptures prior to us and there is some truth still in them

We also know that these books were corrupted, so we ourselves can never follow them

We also know though, that some Jews and Christians live their lives by these books and Allah has given them permission to judge between themselves using these books (as they follow them and do not believe in The Quran)

We still know they are not believers as they have rejected Islam

Jamil

wait can u explain verse 42 and what it has to do with 43

i agree with u

Sam

Verse 42 tells Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to judge between them if they come to him seeking a ruling. So a Muslim ruler can rule between two people of the book, and the ruling can come from their scripture

Verse 43 shows that even when they know what the truth is, they still turn away from it

Jamil

you’re right ,, but idk i think of it this way; that if the torah was corrupted then that was the perfect time and place for allah to reveal a verse stating that or for muhammad to actually say that

Sam

Because they always had the answer in The Torah for that specific ruling (As you showed in the hadith) but they tried to cover the truth up to get a different ruling

Jamil

yes when the jew hid what the verse says with his finger

Sam

Yeah

Well, verse 40 of that same chapter mentions their distortion of the truth as well

Sahih International

O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, “We believe” with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying “If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware.” But he for whom Allah intends fitnah – never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

“They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying “If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware.”

Jamil

verse 41*

Sam

So we know in Islam 100% that prior scriptures were altered

Yes, verse 41, thats right, thanks

We can see it from The Quran, from hadith, historically, logically, etc

There is no doubt in that

So the question boils down, for now, to what do you believe is the closest thing to the truth?

Jamil

what about what moses said in deuteronomy

Sam

What is said there actually proves Muhammad peace be upon him to be a prophet

Jamil

how

Sam

Because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him never told a lie about revelation

Jamil

but didn’t muhammad deliver the satanic verses

تلك الغرانيق العلى وان شفاعتهم لترتجى

and later on said that it was satan who put those words in his mouth

and because he recited those verses , pagans bowed down with him as we see in commentaries and biographies

Sam

These are narrated in super weak hadith ^_^

As Muslims we will be the first people to tell others that there are hadith that are correct and ones that are false

And there are some in between that may be true or not

Jamil

22:52-53

“Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations. God is all-knowing and wise. He makes Satan’s interjections a temptation for those whose hearts are diseased, whose hearts are hardened …

Sam

Sahih International

And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

I think the “Some Misunderstanding” part plays a huge role in the translation

53: Sahih International

[That is] so He may make what Satan throws in a trial for those within whose hearts is disease and those hard of heart. And indeed, the wrongdoers are in extreme dissension.

Jamil

its ok i can read it in arabic (im an arab)

Sam

Ah in that case I don’t need to explain

You can see it for yourself in the verse : D

Satan is not able to change the words of Allah, but he can make the people misunderstand by throwing doubt into their understanding of it

Jamil

ok it says satan throw misunderstanding ; like the satanic verses

Sam

There are no “satanic verses” though

Jamil

i mean why the pagans bowed down with the believers

Sam

Because in that moment they were enraptured by The Quran

As you know The Quran has a beautiful melody throughout, and the meaning flows in a beautiful way

And it was revealed in a time when poetry was the biggest thing in the Arab world

Jamil

but they enraptured by chapter An najm where its alleged that the satanic verses were

Sam

So when they listened to these verses they were affect by it and bowed down with Prophet Muhamad peace be upon him

In fact, because they bowed down, some Muslims who emigrated away from the persecution in makkah came back thinking all of the pagans became Muslim

It is not a satanic verse, but rather they were affected by the words of Allah

Jamil

is there any proof on what u say from some commentary ?

because so far i read the opposite

Sam

There is, have you read Tafis ibn kathir?

Tafsir*

Jamil

no i read biographies

Sam

OK, I’ll try get you the excerpt from it, one moment

Jamil

zamakhshari tafseer mentions it also

(zamakhshari tafseer on the verse i just sent u)

also its mentioned in Tabari

Sam

(So fall you down in prostration to Allah and worship Him.) meaning, with submission, sincerity, and Tawhid. Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ma`mar said that `Abdul-Warith said that Ayyub said that `Ikrimah said that, Ibn `Abbas said, “The Prophet prostrated upon reciting An-Najm and the Muslims, idolators, Jinns and mankind who were present prostrated along with him.” Only Muslim collected this Hadith. Imam Ahmad recorded that Al-Muttalib bin Abi Wada`ah said, “While in Makkah, the Messenger of Allah once recited Surat An-Najm, then prostrated along with all those who were with him at the time. I raised my head, however, and I refused to prostrate.” Al-Muttalib had not embraced Islam yet, but ever since he became Muslim, he would never hear anyone recite this Surah until the end, without prostrating with whomever was prostrating after reciting it. An-Nasa’i also collected this Hadith in the Book of Al-Bukhari, excluding prayer in his Sunan.

This is an abbreviation from the actual text

Let me try get you the original

Jamil

where does it say that they were amazed

Sam

ثم قال آمرا لعباده بالسجود له والعبادة المتابعة لرسوله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – والتوحيد والإخلاص : ( فاسجدوا لله واعبدوا ) أي : فاخضعوا له وأخلصوا ووحدوا .

قال البخاري : حدثنا أبو معمر ، حدثنا عبد الوارث ، حدثنا أيوب ، عن عكرمة ، عن ابن عباس قال : سجد النبي – صلى الله عليه وسلم – بالنجم ، وسجد معه المسلمون والمشركون والجن والإنس . انفرد به دون مسلم .

وقال الإمام أحمد : حدثنا إبراهيم بن خالد ، حدثنا رباح ، عن معمر ، عن ابن طاوس ، عن عكرمة بن خالد ، عن جعفر بن المطلب بن أبي وداعة ، عن أبيه قال : قرأ رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – بمكة سورة النجم ، فسجد وسجد من عنده ، فرفعت رأسي وأبيت أن أسجد ، ولم يكن أسلم يومئذ المطلب ، فكان بعد ذلك لا يسمع أحدا يقرؤها إلا سجد معه .

It doesn’t say anywhere in the hadith that they were amazed

It just mentions that He and everyone around him fell in prostration when they heard the final verse of the chapter

Jamil

pagans fought muhammad fiercely, there must be something that made them prostrate with muhammad , i dont think its the beauty of Quran because they always used to accuse him of copying old myths اساطير الاولين … i could be wrong though

Sam

Well we know that the pagans of Quraish believed in Allah

They used to say so themselves

However they also worshiped other idols

The verse the fell in prostration to was: فَاسْجُدُوا لِلَّهِ وَاعْبُدُوا

Jamil

yes and they believed in three daughters , so when muhamamd recited افرأيم اللات والعزى …. تلك الغرانيق العلى .. it makes sense that they prostrated

Sam

Which is something that doesn’t actually go against their beliefs

Jamil

im sry , do u speak arabic?

Sam

I do

Jamil

im quoting in arabic

oh ok

Sam

That’s fine

: )

Thanks for asking! : D

Jamil

you welcome

it could be what u say is true

Sam

I’d like to point out though that what we have so far is simply proof that they prostrated to this verse

There is nothing to indicate anything with satan

Do you agree with that?

Jamil

true , but its mentioned in several places , like in tabari volume 6, page 107

Sam

Ah, may you please quote it for me

Jamil

Sam

The volume pages differ according to publisher, it would take me a while to find it >_<

Jamil

Ibn Humayd – Salamah-Muhammad b. Ishaq – Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani – Muhammad b. Ka’b al-Qurazi: When the messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:(171)

“By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire…”

and when he came to the words:

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?

Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:

“These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)

When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they listened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example. Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the mosque (173) likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer orunbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. Al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had hared, saying,”Muhammad has mentioned our goes in the most favorable way possible, stating in his recitation that they are the high flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval.”

The news of the prostration reached those of the messenger of God’s companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, “The Quraysh have accepted Islam.” Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, “Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you.” Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad’s tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed:

“Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)

Thus God removed the sorrow from his messenger, reassured him about that which he had feared and cancelled the words which Satan had cast on his tongue, that their gods were the high flying cranes whose intercession was accepted with approval. He now revealed, following the mention of “al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other,” the words:

“Are yours the males and his the females? That indeed were an unfair division! They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers.”

to the words:

to whom he wills and accept (175)

Sam

Give me a moment to check this, it comes from an anti-Islam site and so far 100% of the things that come to me from them have had the meaning altered by their own additions

So I’ll just need a few moments

Sorry for that >_<

Jamil

yes its from answering islam website i can give u the link

https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm#part2b

Sam

Thanks!

Sam

Sorry for the delay, almost there

Jamil

its alright, i can wait, tyt

Sam

I finally found the tafsir on that verse, phew, that took ages, sorry

https://ia802500.us.archive.org/18/items/WAQ59561/taftabry22.pdf

The first chapter in there is this sura ” al-najm”

Sam

The story seems to have no basis in any verse of Quran or authentic hadith

When making decisions about what is from God and what is not, we should limit ourselves to deciding based on what we know is true and not on what we have doubts in

Jamil

just a moment pls, im checking

Sam

Oh, ok, no worries, tyt

Jamil

ok , can you please see Tabari Tafseer to 22:52

Sam

A different chapter, ok, no worries

Just before we do though, I’d like to point something out lgically

Jamil

yeah its not in chapter in An-naajm

Sam

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?

Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:

“These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)

This was the quote

The first verse is : Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?

That is verse 19 in al-najm

The verse for prostration is in verse 62

So between the mentioning of this verse where it is claimed that quraysh was rejoiced with this and the prostration verse comes this:

Sahih International

Is the male for you and for Him the female?

Sahih International

That, then, is an unjust division.

Sahih International

They are not but [mere] names you have named them – you and your forefathers – for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.

Sahih International

Or is there for man whatever he wishes?

Sahih International

Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life].

Meaning after they hear this, they would no longer be “happy” with what has been said about their Gods

The reason I mention this before moving on is because this story that we are looking at has no authentic basis in hadith or Quran

So we need to evaluate whether it can even be true in the first place

Jamil

its in Tabari

its also in ibn kathir

same verse

Sam

22:52, checking it now

Jamil

its also in Qurtoby

just checked all three of the tafseers ..

you can’t find the tafseer in chapter alnaajm because the deleted/abrogated verses from satan aren’t there anymore and were replaced by other verses

Sam

I’m reading through the tafsir of the verse now

Jamil

ok , thank you

Sam

OK, I’ve found an extensive answer alhamduillah

It has the tafsir at the top and the commentary on it below, so scroll down a bit to find it, it starts here:

قوله تعالى : وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي إلا إذا تمنى ألقى الشيطان في أمنيته فينسخ الله ما يلقي الشيطان ثم يحكم الله آياته والله عليم حكيم

فيه ثلاث مسائل :

https://www.islamweb.net/ar/library/index.php?page=bookcontents&ID=0&idfrom=0&idto=0&flag=1&bk_no=50&ayano=52&surano=22&bookhad=0

That’s the website ^

Jamil

so bottomline is; it seemed to the pagans that muhamamd uttered those words

they were deceived by satan

and the rest of hadiths aren’t authentic

Sam

It can’t be used as evidence of anything because the hadiths aren’t authentic to begin with and there are so many unknowns that even in this very conversation we have been sitting here trying to make sense of what actually happened… Something like that can’t be used as proof for anything :3

We need to judge based on the facts that we have, and at the end of this discussion, we’re still back at the fact that there is nothing to prove prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a false prophet

Jamil

ok that’s confusing, it shouldn’t be in the tafseer if the story is unauthentic

what about the other part of what Moses said, that if a prophecy didn’t come up true then the prophet is a false one

Could you give me one prophecy of Muhammad that came up true?

Sam

The thing is the tafseer commentaries, and even in the biography of the prophet books, they use hadiths which are not 100% authentic to help build the picture of what people said and what might have happened, so the person can learn all about what was said on the topic

Sure, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told the Muslims that they would defeat the persians

And that came at a time when persia was still an empire and the Muslims were still struggling to defend against Quraish

Another Arab tribe

The hypocrites at the time were joking about it… like how can he say something like that and we can’t even beat the pagans…

Then in the time of Umar, the Muslim army defeated the Persian empire… While fighting both the persian and roman empires at the same time…

Jamil

yea i remember that Muhammad promised one of those who followed him that he will be rewarded with treasures of كسرى

Sam

Yeah, that’s right

And they saw that person wearing some of the treasures (i think it was a bracelet?) after they won

Jamil

yea and Umar took it from him, ( i remember it from Umar series ) 🙂

TV series

Sam

Alhamduillah

Jamil

idk if u seen it

Sam

Nah, havent seen it

How do you feel after this though?

Do you feel that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was more likely a prophet than not?

Jamil

to be honest , I’m happy now

i feel relief and there’s a smile on my face , you proved me wrong

Sam

Jamil, you just brought tears to my eyes haha, may God guide us both to the truth

Jamil

well, there’s still other issues , but yeah i think if i dig further like we just did , i could reach another conclusion

Sam

So my dear brother, would you then consider re-stating the shahada, so that you can continue your search on these issues as a Muslim? : )

Jamil

Why don’t muslim scholars then stop people like david wood and others and refute all their claims on Islam one by one?

haven’t seen any muslim standing up to them

they responsible for lots of muslims leaving Islam

Sam

Actually there are some refutation sites for these ideas, and people have debated with them, and we (although not scholars) are faced with trying to refute these claims on a daily basis

There are a couple of websites that try to do so, would you like their links?

Jamil

YES

pls

Sam

https://www.letmeturnthetables.com/p/complete-list-of-articles.html?m=1

HOME

I can’t guarantee everything on the site as we have no affilation with them

But it seems they try their best to make the truth of these claims clear : )

So what do you think dear brother? : )

Would you like to continue the search as a Muslim? : )

Jamil

Yes I think so

Sam

In that case my dear brother, please say and then type this:

I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah alone and that Mohammed is his prophet and messenger.

Also, please say and type it in Arabic : “Ash-Hadu an La iLaha illal-Lah, Wa Ash-Hadu Anna Muhammadan Rasulullah.”

And I would then love to call you my brother in Islam : )

Jamil

you know I had a terrible time the last 4 months with Muslims, they called me all kind of names and accusations, it was really bad although as you seen I give chance to anyone to show me the truth and me myself still seeking the truth , during these 4 months when i was studying Christianity one quote from Jesus was hanged on my mind “they will hate you for the sake of my name” – because I also used to tell them what the bible says in return

you’re the first one who actually took my criticism seriously and had the time to actually go through this with me, so i really thank u a lot for doing that

however, i think there’s a lot of other issues, like this was only one example, there’s tons of others that i need to come to conclusion with before i truly become a muslim again , as these issues still controlling my mind

Sam

You know it’s really depressing to see stories of how Muslims turn against their brothers when they have doubts. When your brother has doubts and questions you should spend the time to try to help him get to the truth, not revile him

But I would like to remind you of something important

You know this as well as I do, but to become a Muslim you need only believe in 1 God and that Muhammad peace be upon him was a messenger

Having that, at least, would guarantee you (eventually) paradise, even if you go to hellfire first

Not having it is guaranteed hellfire : (

I have no problems going though these issues with you one by one whenever you come online, it would be my pleasure!

Jamil

Christians say the same

Sam

True, but you and I both know that Christianity is false

Just one look at the bible and you are drowning in contradictions

You yourself admitted earlier that no other religion seems closer to the truth

And if you still hold that belief, then why not just start with that?

Why not start as “A Muslim with some questions”

Jamil

no matter how hard I tried, the idea of the triune God didn’t make any sense, even christians themselves don’t understand it well

Sam

And then slowly move through those questions until you are satisfied

We can only make decisions based on what we have in front of us brother

So right now, you should make a decision based on what you know for sure, and then deal with the doubts one by one

Jamil

It’s hard to practice Islam again, I need to clear at least 50% of my doubts

like I have doubts even about the slightest things Muhammad said

Sam

You know, there is a trick to dealing with some of these doubts

Jamil

for example this hadith :

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “What is below the ankles of a lower garment is condemned to the Fire (Hell).”

[Al-Bukhari].

وعنه عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال‏:‏ ‏ “‏ما أسفل من الكعبين من الإزار ففي النار‏”‏ ‏.‏

and so many others …

Sam

This is in relation to a garment which is worn below the ankles out of pride ^

Jamil

pride?

Sam

Yeah

So someone who is proud and arrogant wears a long thowb or pants that goes past his ankles to the floor

This extra, worn out of pride, is punished

The person is punished for **

The hadith is explained when ABu Bakr came and asked about it

Because his Izar would slip below his ankles because he was so thin

Jamil

Thank you

Sam

No worries, my pleasure

Jamil

someone quote that hadith and made fun of it without mentioning its context

Sam

Brother, there are Christian missionaries that dress as Muslims and act Muslim in Muslim countries to try and convert people to Christianity

They way they conduct themselves in such a sly way is truly evil

They mention something out of context, or change its meaning slightly, or show an incorrect translation (to english speaking people)

And they make people doubt their religion

But as you have seen, when these ideas are hashed out, the answer is always there, and often times, very simple

Which is why I am trying to push you to act on what you know for sure for now, and then deal with these things as they come

You know nothing is closer to the truth than Islam

But you have some questions / doubts

These questions & doubts are not from proof, but from wanting to learn and find the truth

Which is something good!

But doing this search while not a Muslim is so dangerous

You never know when death comes, you may perhaps one day get tired of searching and just stop, and then what : (

Don’t you think it’s best to continue searching as a Muslim than not?

And Jamil, you can always come here to get answers to your questions in sha Allah

We would love to help

Jamil

you’re right

Sam

Then brother, may you please say and then type this:

I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah alone and that Mohammed is his prophet and messenger.

Also, please say and type it in Arabic : “Ash-Hadu an La iLaha illal-Lah, Wa Ash-Hadu Anna Muhammadan Rasulullah.”

I am here every Saturday, Sunday & Monday at this time if you want to ask me specifically (In sha Allah)

And we have other agents online almost 20 hours a day, so you can almost always find someone to discuss issues with

Jamil

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن محمد عبده ورسوله

Thank you sam

Sam

Congratulations by dear brother Jamil

Honestly I love you for the sake of Allah, you are one of the few people that have come with doubts and have been willing to listen to my responses

Often times they just want to attack

But you were truly willing to listen

I would love to discuss any issues you have or questions, whenever you come online

So please always feel free to log on and ask me or any of my brothers and sisters on this chat system

May Allah keep us firm in our religion and put our hearts and minds at ease with any questions or doubts

Jamil

I will try to come back tomorrow and bring some of the other arguments (if i couldn’t find a response to them in the links u sent me)

Amen ,,, Thanks a lot man

Sam

No worries, I’ll be waiting in sha Allah : )

Jamil

Have a blessed day brother 🙂

02:17:37 pm

Jamil rated the chat as good

Sam

You too : )

Assalam Alaykum ^_^

008 Dialog between Ismail, Jamil and Sam￼

008 Dialog between Ismail, Jamil and Sam